Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
  • entry
    1
  • comments
    9
  • views
    375

A Trip to Vegas in a 727

Sign in to follow this  
WW5152

275 views

Hello everyone.  My name is Tom (aka WW5152) and I would like to share some screenshots of a flight I did from St. Louis, Missouri (KSTL) to Las Vegas, Nevada (KLAS) in a Boeing 727-200. 

20180120083354_1.thumb.jpg.63a685b11c66420867be3e5f7e4909d9.jpg

20180120091946_1.thumb.jpg.82fd9d996dbeee7fed3802f53d793594.jpg

20180120115301_1.thumb.jpg.655b48f913030c65f1d586c624732fa2.jpg

20180120120020_1.thumb.jpg.7e8fedd3262e0c24479c5ec14d28c1d9.jpg

The default ATC for FSX vectored me in for a visual approach and landing, or as I call it "Shaking Hands with Danger".  (I'm not a very good pilot.) 

Sign in to follow this  


9 Comments


Recommended Comments

Hi Tom, and many thanks for the nice pics — I especially like no. 2.

A 727 is not an aircraft one sees all that frequently, so thanks for that, too!

> "I call it "Shaking Hands with Danger".  (I'm not a very good pilot.)"

<grin> We all started there, I promise you. When it comes to landings, relax — it gets easier with practice, that's all.  :-)  With an airliner the real secret is to get established in plenty of time, so that you're doing a "stabilised approach" on the glideslope and on the localizer if they're available, otherwise use whatever guidance is available, and/or be guided by the profile depicted on the relevant approach chart —

KLAS_appr_profile.jpg

A stabilised approach can start (depending on ATC, of course) from as much as 8 - 12 nm out from the field, so give yourself plenty of time — landings bite if they go wrong! At first, use your autopilot for most of the approach, and only disengage it when you're around 500 ft AGL (above ground level). If you do that then you should hardly need to touch the controls until you flare for the landing. Well, unless there's a lively cross-wind or something, but you might want to turn the weather off until you're happy doing landings in zero wind, and then gradually reintroduce it.

If you're still having problems then disengage your A/P at 250 ft or even less while you're getting the hang of it (but be sure that it's disengaged before you begin the flare!).   X-)  Once you're confident, then you can start to disengage it earlier — on a good weather day I often do a visual approach in the classic manner, having disengaged the automatics a lot earlier, perhaps even as I leave the cruise; it's entirely up to the discretion of the pilot.   :-)

Notice the Final Approach Fix (the little wonky Maltese cross on the chart — in in the above example you can see it at NODIY): on my 744 I usually set the MCP altitude bug to DA(H) 2 nm before the FAF; then a mile before the FAF I do gear down, arm speedbrakes, and go to flaps 20 (that's on a 744 of course — in your case use the last flap setting prior to landing flaps). Then when I reach the FAF I set landing flap and run the landing checklist.

Consult the charts for your particular landing airport and runway to find out what the applicable DH (or DA, whichever you're using) is: in the example below it's 284 ft if you're on ILS, and 544 ft if you have no glideslope guidance —

DH_for_KLAS_rwy_1_L.jpg

(If you're not sure about the terminology of DH vs DA, Final Approach Segment, and so on, you might find this pdf helpful. The chart examples above, incidentally, are for KLAS rwy 01L).

When your main gear touches down deploy reversers and also reverse thrust (if using — not all airfields permit it, or perhaps only at certain times of day), and check that the speedbrakes auto-deploy (if not, quickly deploy them manually!). At 80 kts stow the reversers; and at 30 kts set/check that the autopilot and autothrottle are completely disengaged, and also turn the Flight Directors off. Welcome to the gentle taxy in!   :-)

Finally, don't even think of trying for a "greaser" in an airliner! A "firm" touchdown is preferred (in my 744 I aim for about -200 fpm) — and if the runway is wet then a firm touchdown is absolutely required so that you get good tyre contact and hence good braking. (Floating half way along the runway trying to get a gentle touchdown means that you'll probably end up on the golf course beyond the far airfield fence. You're not allowed on there unless you've paid a green fee...).   ;-)

I hope that helps,

Cheers,

Brian

Share this comment


Link to comment

It was the first jet to  be used in Australia and I was working at AWA at the time and even under supervision did some work on the electronics.  Things were pretty free at the airport then and I spent a lot of time just sitting in the cockpits  dreaming.  Left that job soon after which may have been a bit foolish to work in New Guinea. Thanks for the memories.

What 727 is that you use?

Share this comment


Link to comment
2 hours ago, brian747 said:

Floating half way along the runway trying to get a gentle touchdown means that you'll probably end up on the golf course beyond the far airfield fence. You're not allowed on there unless you've paid a green fee...).   ;-)

QF1 found that out.

Share this comment


Link to comment

X-(  A salutary example indeed!

Although IIRC in that case the confusion in the cockpit was the primary cause, which in turn led to the situation (since autobrake had been inadvertently cancelled) that manual braking only began when the aircraft was already over 5,000 ft down the water-soaked runway.  :-(  

Interesting — I just checked good ol' Wikipedia to refresh my increasingly erratic memory, and read this:

"The combination of flaps 25, no auto-braking, no reverse thrust, a high and fast approach, a late touch down, poor Cockpit Resource Management, and the standing water on the runway led to a runway overshoot."

<sigh> A fair summary. The fact that there weren't any significant passenger injuries was fortuitous, if not downright miraculous. Given that the LDA on VTBD's longest runway is 12,139 ft, and braking only began after 5,249 ft, then obviously that only left them only 6,890 ft of runway in which to stop a heavily-laden 747 — on a runway with standing water after an overspeed landing with no reverse thrust used (thanks to Company policy). That one was never going to turn out well.

(I wonder if they stopped the $100 million repair bill out of the crew's wages?)    8-º

The article adds this:

"Qantas still operates flight number 1 between Sydney and London flying an Airbus A380-800, currently via Dubai. However, Qantas will end its flights to Dubai by 25 March 2018 as all of its flights between Sydney and London will once again operate via Singapore."

Cheers,

Brian

Share this comment


Link to comment
On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 5:58 AM, brian747 said:

Hi Tom, and many thanks for the nice pics — I especially like no. 2.

A 727 is not an aircraft one sees all that frequently, so thanks for that, too!

> "I call it "Shaking Hands with Danger".  (I'm not a very good pilot.)"

<grin> We all started there, I promise you. When it comes to landings, relax — it gets easier with practice, that's all.  :-)  With an airliner the real secret is to get established in plenty of time, so that you're doing a "stabilised approach" on the glideslope and on the localizer if they're available, otherwise use whatever guidance is available, and/or be guided by the profile depicted on the relevant approach chart —

KLAS_appr_profile.jpg

A stabilised approach can start (depending on ATC, of course) from as much as 8 - 12 nm out from the field, so give yourself plenty of time — landings bite if they go wrong! At first, use your autopilot for most of the approach, and only disengage it when you're around 500 ft AGL (above ground level). If you do that then you should hardly need to touch the controls until you flare for the landing. Well, unless there's a lively cross-wind or something, but you might want to turn the weather off until you're happy doing landings in zero wind, and then gradually reintroduce it.

If you're still having problems then disengage your A/P at 250 ft or even less while you're getting the hang of it (but be sure that it's disengaged before you begin the flare!).   X-)  Once you're confident, then you can start to disengage it earlier — on a good weather day I often do a visual approach in the classic manner, having disengaged the automatics a lot earlier, perhaps even as I leave the cruise; it's entirely up to the discretion of the pilot.   :-)

Notice the Final Approach Fix (the little wonky Maltese cross on the chart — in in the above example you can see it at NODIY): on my 744 I usually set the MCP altitude bug to DA(H) 2 nm before the FAF; then a mile before the FAF I do gear down, arm speedbrakes, and go to flaps 20 (that's on a 744 of course — in your case use the last flap setting prior to landing flaps). Then when I reach the FAF I set landing flap and run the landing checklist.

Consult the charts for your particular landing airport and runway to find out what the applicable DH (or DA, whichever you're using) is: in the example below it's 284 ft if you're on ILS, and 544 ft if you have no glideslope guidance —

DH_for_KLAS_rwy_1_L.jpg

(If you're not sure about the terminology of DH vs DA, Final Approach Segment, and so on, you might find this pdf helpful. The chart examples above, incidentally, are for KLAS rwy 01L).

When your main gear touches down deploy reversers and also reverse thrust (if using — not all airfields permit it, or perhaps only at certain times of day), and check that the speedbrakes auto-deploy (if not, quickly deploy them manually!). At 80 kts stow the reversers; and at 30 kts set/check that the autopilot and autothrottle are completely disengaged, and also turn the Flight Directors off. Welcome to the gentle taxy in!   :-)

Finally, don't even think of trying for a "greaser" in an airliner! A "firm" touchdown is preferred (in my 744 I aim for about -200 fpm) — and if the runway is wet then a firm touchdown is absolutely required so that you get good tyre contact and hence good braking. (Floating half way along the runway trying to get a gentle touchdown means that you'll probably end up on the golf course beyond the far airfield fence. You're not allowed on there unless you've paid a green fee...).   ;-)

I hope that helps,

Cheers,

Brian

Thanks for the information, Brian.  It was very, very helpful.  Landings are going a lot smoother now that I'm giving myself plenty of time.  I try to keep my landing rates at or below 500fpm.  Not exactly gentle but not bone shattering either.

Share this comment


Link to comment

Harrry, the 727 that I used was the Captain Sim 727 with the -200 expansion.  The livery that I used I got from Flightsim.com.

Share this comment


Link to comment

I'm happy it helped, Tom.

An airliner is designed to slip smoothly through the air, and that's why they are so hard to slow down (ideally, without using the speedbrakes, which cause ripples on the drinks in first class — in normal conditions you shouldn't need them, and indeed some pilots regard using them as a sign of a failure in their thinking somewhere — ATC requirements or unusual weather conditions excepted, of course). And the bigger the airline, the more momentum you acquire — so the more energy to dissipate or, as they say in the trade, "manage". Hence the challenge is always to "think ahead of the aircraft", which as you said basically comes down to thinking ahead to give yourself (and the aircraft) enough time.

After that, 'all' it takes is practice....    8-º

Cheers,

Brian

Share this comment


Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×